User talk:Horeki/Archive 4

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Horeki (宝暦) = "Valuable Calendar"

A *rakan* beating a drum at Kita-in, a Buddhist temple in Japan.

IEP 2.0

Hello. You have new messages at Osiris's talk page. Osiris (talk) 05:42, 30 June 2012 (UTC)[reply]

Soccer

Thank you for talking to me. Please visit my page. --TMDnumahira (talk) 16:32, 2 July 2012 (UTC)[reply]

Discussion about India

Hey Horeki, I just wanted to let you know how sorry I am about the misunderstanding on the proposal page. I guess you thought that I was referring to the Simple English Wikipedia, when I was in fact talking about the English Wikipedia (compared to smaller Wikipedia language versions like Arabic, Simple, Czech etc.). I have no doubt that the community on the Simple English Wikipedia would be welcoming and treat newcomers in the most friendly way. Sorry again for not being more explicit. --Frank Schulenburg (Wikimedia Foundation) (talk) 10:16, 3 July 2012 (UTC)[reply]

NO, BLUNTLY, no -- this is very unwelcome. This belongs on the IEP proposal page here.

THE POINT
The one, sole, single, narrowly-focused topic of discussion is about the IEP proposal. Yes or no?

IEP proposal = pig in a poke?

IEP proposal = en:Spin (public relations)?

In public relations, spin is a form of propaganda, achieved through providing an interpretation of an event or campaign to persuade public opinion ....

IEP proposal = en:The Emperor's New Clothes?

"The Emperor's New Clothes" is a story by Hans Christian Andersen. It is about a "misunderstanding" involving clothes that are invisible to those who are unfit for their positions, stupid, or incompetent. When the Emperor parades before his subjects in his new clothes, a child cries out, "But he isn't wearing anything at all!"

BESIDE THE POINT

All attempts to re-focus on tangential issues are nothing but "spin".
"Spin" is not good in this context.

No — This discussion had nothing to do with "letting newcomers join Wikipedia".
No — This thread had nothing to do with "not as open and welcoming as they were some years ago" nor with "environments that are most likely to give newcomers a positive and inspiring experience".
No — The comments on this page had nothing to do with "approaching new users in a welcoming and nurturing way".
No — Summarizing correctly has nothing to do with "environments that provide the right preconditions".

BLUNTLY, there is one and only one question which has been asked and answered: What fails in "engaging the community as a partner"? --Horeki (talk) 14:59, 3 July 2012 (UTC)[reply]

┌─────────────────────────────────┘
Constructive alternative at User:Osiris/WikiProject India

Leadership and practical suggestions

Getting started: ... Thank you for showing interest in this new pilot for the Indian Education Program! I expect that your willingness to support the initiative is a great boost of confidence to its coordinators. What I'd like to do now is to try to match that confidence within the community by getting you and the other volunteers started in actively editing here. Because each version of Wikipedia works differently, our local editors understandably would like to see you familiarised with the project before taking on a team of students. Once we begin working together and start seeing you build up the necessary experience, I think everyone will have a lot more confident in the plan.

If you haven't already visited them, the links in your welcome message show the very basics of how to get started here. You will probably find writing in simple English difficult at first (I certainly did), but with practice you will get good at it. I keep a list of things here that can help in simplifying. There are lots of topics about India that don't have articles on this wiki yet, so there is plenty to do! I've started to draw up a list of some of these here. It's not finished yet, and if you see something that should be there, please feel free to add it! Also, every week or so, a new set of "most wanted" articles that this wiki doesn't yet have will get listed on WP:RC.

If you need any help whatsoever along the way, just leave me a message on my talk page and I'll reply as soon as I can with the answer. Once you start editing, you will find that most if not all other editors will be willing to give you a few tips if you need them. Good luck and have fun!

Osiris (talk) 29 June 2012

Copied from User:Osiris/WikiPoject India#Protected areas

Other India-related investments of time:

Multiple edits to talk pages

Are you aware that it can be disruptive to make multiple edits to a user talk page within a short period of time? Every time you save an edit, the user gets a notice (and possibly an email) that they have new messages. If the user is in the middle of something, that can get annoying. Maybe you could create what you want to post in your userspace or offline, then work on it there to get it the way you want it before posting on the user talk page. --Auntof6 (talk) 21:02, 6 July 2012 (UTC)[reply]

Moreover, if the editor is currently working with AWB, he/she can't ignore the notification: he/she has to go back to the browser and look at the talk page before AWB will let them continue. --Auntof6 (talk) 21:06, 6 July 2012 (UTC)[reply]

No I didn't know my writing caused this kind of problem. I am sorry that my writing caused annoyance. Please forgive me. --Horeki (talk) 21:43, 6 July 2012 (UTC)[reply]

Indian football

Sir you have broken a copyright rule that affects me by using my work from English Wikipedia and using it for your own self gains on here. For example the table you used for Indian football teams was made by me and I put a copyright on that. For misuse of my copyright you have been blocked for 1 month...... haha I am kidding. But seriously thank you for starting what my future project was going to be. I would just like to introduce myself. I am Arsenalkid700. Mainly known for being the user who almost revamped all the pages pertaining to Football (Soccer) in India. For example, the table on the I-League page was created by me after I saw the biggest mess of my life. Anyway I see what you have done and I hope you continue. You are doing a great job. Keep it up. If you have questions pertaining to Indian football dont be afraid to ask. Cheers. --Arsenalkid700 (talk) 03:34, 7 July 2012 (UTC)[reply]

I am mainly interested in writing about Japan; but in small ways, I plan to do what I can to improve the range of articles about Indian subjects.

Please permit me to defer to you in developing Category:Indian football clubs. Due credit for the table and the paired team/map format at List of Indian football teams was posted here.

Slowly over the coming months, I plan is to create only stub articles about the I-League and I-League 2nd Division teams. I envisage a modest beginning for a subject which may develop at a snail's pace. My interest is in creating the foundation for the work of others like you.

In part, this is an attempt to do something which balances my opposition to the flawed India Education Program (IEP). I chose to begin with Pune F.C. because Pune was one of the IEP sites.

Yes, I will have questions. It is good to know that I will have somewhere to turn for help, thank you.

I wonder where is the best place to consolidate this discussion? Perhaps at Talk:List of Indian football teams#Structural strategy in football articles? --Horeki (talk) 13:38, 7 July 2012 (UTC)[reply]

Reply to Statistics box

Agree, that should be the best way to put it on here. Just keep in mind that you may need to add an extra category to some player statistic boxes because some of the teams play in state leagues. --Arsenalkid700 (talk) 22:05, 8 July 2012 (UTC)[reply]

Simple WikiProject Football

Your welcomed to join if you want and we can discuss things like the infobox etc... User:Arsenalkid700/WikiProject Football. Cheers. --Arsenalkid700 (talk) 22:22, 8 July 2012 (UTC)[reply]

Is it possible that SEWP is too small for a WikiProject? --Horeki (talk) 19:19, 9 July 2012 (UTC)[reply]

That is why it is under my username. I was told that is what you have to do and so I did it. --Arsenalkid700 (talk) 05:36, 10 July 2012 (UTC)[reply]

We don't do real WikiProjects here. However, if a user wants to coordinate some work and call it a WikiProject, they can do so by keeping it in their user space. --Auntof6 (talk) 05:55, 10 July 2012 (UTC)[reply]

Reply

Hey I replied at my talk page. Have a look. --Debastein (talk) 05:47, 13 July 2012 (UTC)[reply]

List of World Heritage Sites in India

Re: Talk:List of World Heritage Sites in India

Hi Horeki, I saw that you have proposed redirects over here. However, some of the redirects which you have proposed don't make a lot of sense. For e.g, Chhatrapati Shivaji Terminus has redirects as Victoria Terminus, which is fine. But the second one is Chhatrapati Shivaji, who was actually a person. You can check out his article on en.wiki. So please take this factor into consideration as well. :-) -- BPositive 06:26, 14 July 2012

Okay, yes. Please take note of the strike-out through this questioned redirect. The strike-out is an immediate and specific response to your comment. This action acknowledges and accepts your good judgment.

At the same time, this reasonable comment raises more general questions.

For example, you may not know that the international airport in Sydney, New South Wales is officially named "Kingsford Smith International Airport". At present, there is no SEWP article about this Australian aviator. As a general rule, I would have thought it made sense to create a redirect which linked Kingsford Smith and Sydney Airport. In fact, I have done so.

Who knows when someone will get around to making an SEWP article about Charles Kingsford Smith, but the re-direct can be modified when the unwritten article is created. In the meantime, the redirect is likely to be helpful to those who search for the airport. Do you see my reasoning?

The suggested use of ~~Chhatrapati Shivaji~~ as a redirect was not careless. If you please, I hope you will invest a small amount of time in helping me to understand how this general strategy causes bigger problems than it solves. In other words, the problem solved by the redirects like this one is more significant than the potential for causing confusion. --Horeki (talk) 15:50, 14 July 2012 (UTC)[reply]

When someone is trying to create an article on Chhatrapati Shivaji, won't he/she be redirected to Chhatrapati Shivaji Terminus? How will the editor create it then? You have a valid point and it may work in some cases. But practically, I think users from India will look out more for Chhatrapati Shivaji (as compared to users outside India). This is because there are lessons of Shivaji in the History subject upto 5th or 6th grade. When they search for Chhatrapati Shivaji and end up on a world heritage site, don't you think it'll be a bit awkward? Please correct me if I'm wrong. Just trying to raise a point :) BPositive (talk) 17:26, 14 July 2012 (UTC)[reply]

Thank you, I am following your leadership in matters having to do with India. For emphasis, please recall that there is a strike-out over the proposed redirect here. In future, I will avoid this kind of reasoning in India-related contexts.

We both learn from this small issue.

I hope you agree that our discussion becomes an example of working together well. --Horeki (talk) 19:24, 14 July 2012 (UTC)[reply]

Yes, I agree. :) BPositive (talk) 08:11, 15 July 2012 (UTC)[reply]

Reply

Hi, sorry for the late reply. I won't consider your actions regretful. Yes, IEP may have potential, but if it is worked out properly with proper community support. The IP team currently seem to want to do this whatever way so as to show that they have done something. Apart from this, they want to bring in too many students which isn't good. It's not a regretful action, but a wise one. Cheers, --Rsrikanth05 (talk) 11:49, 17 July 2012 (UTC)[reply]

Thank You

Thank you for support and message, I have added pages to watchlist and will edit :) AbhiSuryawanshi (talk) 18:55, 20 July 2012 (UTC)[reply]

The next Big Weekend – 10 to 13 August

You are invited to take part in the next big weekend, the Big Space Weekend, on 10 to 13 August. Our goal is to increase the number and quality of space-related articles. For full details, see Simple Talk. DJDunsie (talk) 16:56, 21 July 2012 (UTC)[reply]

Big Olympic Weekend

		The Working Man's Barnstar
		Thank you for the contributions you made during the Big Olympic Weekend. You made many quality changes and additions! Tbennert (talk) 02:52, 24 July 2012 (UTC)[reply]

Thank you. --Horeki (talk) 13:09, 24 July 2012 (UTC)[reply]

Flags in Olympic articles

Most of the flags you are putting in these articles are not the flags of the Olympic teams, but the flags of the countries. I don't see the need to have the country flags in these articles, but if you are going to put them in, would you at least describe them as the country's flag instead of the team's flag? --Auntof6 (talk) 16:46, 27 July 2012 (UTC)[reply]

When I watch television, the national flags are presented as team flags. I guess I may not know what you mean.

Instead of an infobox like the ones on many pages, I would have wanted something like

Template:Olympiabilanz? = {{Olympiabilanz|Flag of the United Kingdom.svg|GBR}}?

This German template is in the upper right corner at de:Liste der olympischen Medaillengewinner aus dem Vereinigten Königreich, but I did not know how to create a template which combined an icon and a flag and an IOC code.

In effect, I am simply mirroring what I found at

Please explain the problem again in different words. --Horeki (talk) 17:10, 27 July 2012 (UTC)[reply]

I see the flags in those articles. Those articles do not say it is the flag of the team. They say it is the flag of the country. When the teams march in, they carry the flags of their countries. The flags are not specifically for the teams. Most of the teams do not have specific flags. An exception is the flag for the Australasian team. The Australasian team used a special flag because there were people from different countries on the team. It's OK to have the flags there, but describing it as the "flag of the Olympic team" implies that the team has its own flag, which they usually do not. --Auntof6 (talk) 17:49, 27 July 2012 (UTC)[reply]

Aha, I see, yes. --Horeki (talk) 18:04, 27 July 2012 (UTC)[reply]

RfD nomination of Active volcano

An editor has requested deletion for your article named Active volcano. We appreciate your changes, but the nominator doesn't believe that the article meets Wikipedia's criteria for inclusion and has explained why in his/her nomination (see also "What Wikipedia is not").

Please comment on the discussion by adding your comments at Wikipedia:Requests for deletion/Requests/2012/Active volcano and please be sure to sign your comments with four tildes (~~~~).

You may also change the article during the discussion to address the nominator's concerns. But you should not remove the requests for deletion template from the top of the article; such removal will not end the deletion debate. Thank you very much. weltforce (talk) 14:34, 1 August 2012 (UTC)[reply]

Nobuho Mikazaki

Hey Horeki. Do you know what this guy's name would look like in Japanese script? I'm trying to work out whether he's actually notable enough for an article... Osiris (talk) 13:38, 3 August 2012 (UTC)[reply]

Nobuho Mikazaki was a player in the regional league for 7 years; and this may be sufficient for notability.

Although some regional league players do have articles in the Japanese Wikipedia, Mikazaki does not.

IMO, the available information does not provide enough information for this article to be saved

At the top of the page, I put {{notability}}

I wonder if this should this be discussed at Wikipedia:Requests for Deletion? --Horeki (talk) 14:46, 3 August 2012 (UTC)[reply]

Thanks for that, Horeki

I'm not sure what to do. Seven years is a long time, but I can't find anything online... I won't speedy it since I can't adequately verify that he's not notable enough, but I'll wait to see what someone else says. Osiris (talk) 14:53, 3 August 2012 (UTC)[reply]

Looked into it a bit further today. A few passing mentions in blogs, but nothing in mainstream RS. Without a claim to notability on the page, I've gone ahead and deleted it. Thank you for your help with this. Osiris (talk) 06:36, 4 August 2012 (UTC)[reply]

Can this be a kind of learning from experience for us? IMO, other articles like this one should be treated in the same way.

Do you know the phrase: "Those who do not learn from the past are condemned to repeat it"?

As a general rule-of-thumb, I would argue that players in Japan's regional leagues are not notable simply because they have years of experience. Without more, playing in this lowest-ranked group of professional association football teams is not notable enough for SEWP.

At List of Japanese football teams, we learn that the sport has a long-term expansion program called the "Hundred Year Plan". This plan looks forward to more teams and the creation of a new division. In other words, I would hope you agree with these proposed axioms

Japan national team -- always notable
J. League Division 1 players -- always notable
J. League Division 2 players -- rarely notable, the exception rather than the rule
J. League Division 3 players -- only very rarely notable, the exception rather than the rule
Japan Football League players -- almost never notable, the exception rather than the rule
Regional league players -- never notable without something else

What do you think? In specific, what do you think about

deciding in advance that all players who earn a place on Japan's national teams are presumed notable for that reason alone, even if that player achieves very little else?
deciding in advance that notability in most 2nd and 3rd division players is presumed to be unusual, uncommon, unconventional, unexpected?
deciding in advance that no regional league player is worthy of the research and discussion which we have invested in Nobuho Mikazaki?

Do you see the point I'm trying to make?

In future, I would expect to shorten discussions with a hyperlink to this thread. In this way, our investment of time and thought would then become a foundation for what comes next. --Horeki (talk) 15:25, 4 August 2012 (UTC)[reply]

Looks like a good guideline to go by. Is Division 3 the same as Japan Football League? For the regional league, certainly, I would expect to see some proof of notability on the page, and I would not consider simply playing in this league to be a claim to notability. Osiris (talk) 15:35, 4 August 2012 (UTC)[reply]

Division 3 does not exist yet. It is not the same as JFL.

From what I read, this new J-3 grouping is projected below J-2 and above JFL. Players in these leagues have a skill-level greater than those in the regional Tohoku League in which the Mikazaki plays. --Horeki (talk) 16:47, 4 August 2012 (UTC)[reply]

DYK

Recommended an article you contributed to for Did you know. Macquarie Island is now on the Main Page :) --Tbennert (talk) 22:43, 6 August 2012 (UTC)[reply]

Reply to your Comment

This discussion moved to Talk:Football at the 2012 Summer Olympics – Women's tournament#Cite support.

Honestly I removed it because I think it didn't make the article look as good. I know that shouldn't be an excuse, but I've never seen a reference in that area of a table in any article i've seen. If we can decided a place to put the reference somewhere else I would like that then. If you forgot, this is regarding the 2012 Summer Olympics football page. --VladDoskov (talk) 03:05, 7 August 2012 (UTC)[reply]

Categories for Japanese prefectures?

What would you think about making categories for the individual Japanese prefectures? I see that some (maybe all) of the categories for Japanese footballers have a category for the prefecture, but as a red link. An example is Category:Footballers from Tochigi prefecture. I'd like to either find enough entries to create those categories, or remove them from the articles. What do you think? --Auntof6 (talk) 03:39, 20 August 2012 (UTC)[reply]

Yes, of course. Thank you ..., but I'm not sure I understand the question? --Horeki (talk) 18:27, 20 August 2012 (UTC)[reply]

I think "prefecture" should be capitalized.

Please compare A → B → C

As context for decision-making about capitalization, please review Wikipedia:Simple talk/Archive 100#Seamounts. In part, this was a discussion about capitalization.

If reworking of prefectural categories is needed, is it necessary for these capitalization changes to be done manually?

Are you hoping I will volunteer? If so, yes, fine, okay.

What is "simple" and best? --Horeki (talk) 19:38, 20 August 2012 (UTC)[reply]

I was just looking for another opinion, not a volunteer. I wouldn't mind doing the work. I agree that the word "Prefecture" should be capitalized in this context. However, since most of the redlinked categories have the lower-case P, I decided to just remove the categories. That's all I'm interested in right now. Thanks for your input. --Auntof6 (talk) 21:45, 20 August 2012 (UTC)[reply]

It is plain that I didn't understand the question. --Horeki (talk) 22:06, 20 August 2012 (UTC)[reply]

You've also got the municipality categories that can go in. They're all using uppercase. Osiris (talk) 23:02, 20 August 2012 (UTC)[reply]

Entries to create categories

Auntof6, you asked, "I'd like to either find enough entries to create those categories, or remove them from the articles."

IMO, there should be or could be prefecture categories. For example, Category:Fukuoka Prefecture on the island of Kyushu suggests the kinds of articles we would expect to find:

A. 1 or more provinces — You may not know that each prefecture was created by merging one or more provinces. For example, the land of Buzen Province, Chikugo Province and Chikuzen Province is now part of Fukuoka Prefecture.^{[県 1]}
B. 1 or more Shinto shrines — In pre-modern Japan, each province had a chief Shinto shrine or ichinomiya. When prefectures were created, each had one or more ichinomiya. For example, Kōra taisha, Sumiyoshi jinja, Hakosagi-gū and Usa jinjū are in Fukuoka Prefecture.^{[県 2]}
C. 1 or more National Treasures and/or cultural World Heritage Sites
D. 1 or more National Parks^{[県 3]} and/or natural World Heritage Sites
E. 1 or more professional sports team, such as Giravanz Kitakyushu, Avispa Fukuoka, and Fukuoka SoftBank Hawks
F. 1 or more airports, such as Fukuoka Airport

There are also sub-category entries, such as

______

↑ Nussbaum, Louis-Frédéric. (2002). "Provinces and prefectures" in Japan Encyclopedia, p. 780.
↑ "Nationwide List of Ichinomiya," p. 3; retrieved 2012-8-21.
↑ Japan Ministry of the Environment, "General overview of area figures for Natural Parks by prefecture"; retrieved 2012-3-13.

Also, we can anticipate unique entries in prefectural categories. For example, Category:Fukushima Prefecture rightly includes the Fukushima Daiichi Nuclear Power Plant.

Auntof6, thank you for causing me to invest some time and thought in this interesting "problem". --Horeki (talk) 16:20, 21 August 2012 (UTC)[reply]

Auntof6, you asked a good question. As test cases, I have created tentative prefectural categories -- see Category:Prefectures of Japan

Category:Miyagi Prefecture‎

FYI, Mutsu Province was very large. It's area was broken up into several prefectures, including Fukushima and Miyagi. Also, the chief Shinto shrine for Fukushima is actually in Miyagi because its area was established before the prefectures were created. Mutsu and Shiogama jinja are examples of articles which are in overlapping prefectural categories.

Auntof6, is this the kind of thing you were asking me to think about? --Horeki (talk) 19:24, 22 August 2012 (UTC)[reply]

Talkback

Hello, Horeki. You have new messages at Strike Eagle's talk page.
Message added 04:24, 22 August 2012 (UTC). You can remove this notice at any time by removing the {{Talkback}} or {{Tb}} template.[reply]

TheStrike Σagle 04:24, 22 August 2012 (UTC)[reply]

Category:Footballers from Tottori Prefecture

I have asked for this category to be deleted. That is because it had only one entry. Categories here should have at least three entries. If the category has already been deleted, feel free to create it again if there are at least three entries to put in it. I moved the one entry up to both higher-level categories. --Auntof6 (talk) 01:19, 28 August 2012 (UTC)[reply]

Yes, thank you. Aha, I see. --Horeki (talk) 01:22, 28 August 2012 (UTC)[reply]

Articles about athletes from Tottori include

Perhaps this satisfies the minimum needed for this category to exist? --Horeki (talk) 05:01, 28 August 2012 (UTC)[reply]

[1] Nussbaum, Louis-Frédéric. (2002). "Provinces and prefectures" in Japan Encyclopedia, p. 780.

[2] "Nationwide List of Ichinomiya," p. 3; retrieved 2012-8-21.

[3] Japan Ministry of the Environment, "General overview of area figures for Natural Parks by prefecture"; retrieved 2012-3-13.

[県 1]

[県 2]

[県 3]